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Would you die for your country?
Topic Started: May 25 2016, 02:16 AM (1,860 Views)
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SSj4 Gotenks
May 26 2016, 02:14 PM
I ain't even going to respond to someone that hesitates to even die for their family. Your post makes you look like coward, and like I've said, I don't need a history lesson that i already know. And you're wrong, people were willing to fight to defend their countries.


First: Congrats, you had to resort to an ad hominem.

Second: A coward? Really? I'd hesitate about f*cking dying so I'm a coward!?
No, I'm realistic. I think rationally so I know that I wouldn't blindly throw my life out there for my family. I'd think it through and look for ways around the dilemma first.
You make it sound as if I posted: "f*ck my family, only my life matters."
I didn't say that. I said that I'd do it if there wasn't any way around it.
If you think that makes me coward then you're really thinking like a child.
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Pelador
May 26 2016, 02:37 PM
Those things you're arguing for are pretty universal. Everyone wants democracy and freedom and civil rights. They aren't exclusive to our nations. So it doesn't make sense to die for your country based on those things alone. Humanity yes, Earth yes, England, nah. Besides what even is a country? Invisible lines drawn up by men long dead which will probably be moved again by men yet to be born. It doesn't mean anything. I was born on this patch of land so I must therefore defend it with my life? That's not a rational thought. I think I'll put my own life before what corrupt politicians tell me is mine, when in reality we own nothing.
No they don't. The Persian empire was happy for a long time and Mongols was pleased with what they have. Saudi Arabia doesn't care about civil rights.

Have you experienced Communism? or visited Saudi Arabia, Iraq during Saddam Hussein regime?

Communism came from Russia (or the old USSR), look at Russia before and after Communism. I'm half Russian, I know because half of family is moving out of Russia to Australia and America. And the other half is from China escaping Communism. They were born there, but they love America and Australia.

If it's universal, then why are people who are from Sri Lanka, India, Middle East risking their lives and children to gamble on everything they have and even their lives to make it to Australia or America on refugee boats? Is it the land they want? Off course not so why are you still using that argument about England being a patch of land? My point is you don't seem them trying to go a country where people don't like or think they won't have a future there. A country is more than land where you plant your flag. It's the way of life that the people living there live and custom to, it's the politics and ideas that drive them, able to live free, all qualities that attract other nations to become them.
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Tinny
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SSj4 Gotenks
May 26 2016, 02:14 PM
@Tinny

Who is engine? Is that some sort of humour?

As usual you misunderstood.

What does replying to Ginyu post that has nothing to do with my intentions have to do with anything?

Read his first post and others who say they absolutely will not die for their country, but will die for civil rights and other things that make a free country great. If you have no love a country that allows you to speak your mind, f*** off to another country then.

And also did you seriously bring a definition of what a country is to this debate?

Everybody knows a country by definition is geography divided by borders made by men, but your country is your home, the place where you were born, your parents and grandparents, or if you migrated to a free country (to America, England, Canada, among others), it's the freedom and ideas that drawn you to migrate. People who live in the country that believes in its constitution and everything that makes it great, and if you think a country is just a piece of land then your an .

Secondly, I'm only replying because I'm shocked at the level people here showed, people who are from England, Canada and America are saying these things, I'm not saying go defend your country blindly, most people here are from America, England where democracy rules and lucky you ain't in Iraq, Saudi Arabia or China who would have you arrested, tortured and killed.

So what makes the country great? Is it the land... off course not.


Ginyu first post


@Ginyu

I ain't even going to respond to someone that hesitates to even die for their family. Your post makes you look like coward, and like I've said, I don't need a history lesson that i already know. And you're wrong, people were willing to fight to defend their countries.


I've edited that and added more.
from what you've stated, plenty of people here are willing to die for their country because they've already stated they'd die for their family.

Well your didn't address anything he said, you just the 40s were better.

Because they don't think of their country had being imbued with this rights by God or anything. They see the politicians and laws, and the boundaries. That don't see Mom or Dad or their friend. These people are very comical regarding their government, which if anything is a country, it's that. I don't get why you're see offended that people look at Bush and think "I don't want to die for this man's benefit." Because frankly with something as vague as "die for your country" that's gonna presumably be part of it. Dying because the government told you to.

Yes. Is there a problem with me defining how I see a country? A country can change, perhaps by the end of this century the USA will become a tyrannical dictatorship while North Korea becomes a democracy and unites with South Korea (let's ignore for now how that would happen), countries change. And again, I see a country as a piece of land that hooks a political identity. So of course I wouldn't die for it. And frankly it's as you said, countries change, and if it changes too much, I'll move away, forget about dying for my country I won't live in my country if it changes on me, and it can, rather really in fact because a country in the end, is a political institution created and headed by people, not spirits of democracy or freedom.

I'll assume you ment an insult at the end. And I guess I am, because I don't believe these ideas will remain if we don't maintain them. For these ideals that area supposedly intrinsic to the country I may just as likely end up fighting against my country as for it (probably not but I'd imagine the Germans who went against the Naxis faces a dilemma like that. People change and so do countries. In a hundred years time perhaps China will be a full fledged democracy full of freedom while the USA turns to anarchy and arises with a disgraceful dictatorship compete with a cut of personality (let's ignore how thus happens for now), if that happens what then? Do I die for my country when it attacks for example, let's say the hypothetical China I just described? If anything I think I'd defect to the country that supports my ideals.

Well, that's what a country is, which is why I say no one truly dies for their country. They fordie for something else their country happens to hold, like their ideals, or their family.

I assume then you've risked your life for your family in a situation where you were sure you were gonna die? I don't believe anyone can be sure of what they're gonna do when faced with that decision no matter what they say. For one who's to say you'd really make the sacrifice? You might think you do, you might even have done it once (tried anyway, I mean you're here now), that doesn't guarantee your courage won't fail you if you're called upon to risk or outright sacrifice your life for them.


Tldr
I might (I sure hope I'd be willing to when/if the time comes) be willing to die for the ideals of America, I might die for the people residing there, but I'm not dying because the government told me to, and frankly "dying for your country" also covers willingly marching into Poland at the orders of the Füher. So no, I will not die for my country, I need more information than that. I'd die (I hope I would anyway) if it was gonna prevent say, DC dim getting wiped out because of I don't do something that'll result in my death, far more people die. But I'm not gonna march to my death if the President tells me to attack the Hispanics and butcher them to the last man woman and child. Both would fall under "dying for my country" as far as I can tell.

Gotenks in regards to your newest post, if anything that's proves that it's universal, if it's solidly American why are people from outside trying to get to a place that exhibits those virtues?
Edited by Tinny, May 26 2016, 03:20 PM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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There are VERY few situation where I would willingly give my life to protect my country. Thankfully, the chances of these scenarios happening are next to nil. They all involve tyrannical nations or uprisings by fundamentalists. The former is incredibly unlikely to happen given how advanced the US' military is, the latter while far more likely, is still pretty far from the shore. Given the country's more progressive... progress in recent years. Although with the surprising amount of support Trump's been getting lately, it's still sizeable enough that it might be an issue.
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All in all, I think this is too vague, a few different scenarios would likely make this allot easier to say yes to, I'd imagine must believe (at least want to think) that they would die to stop a bomb from killing people in say, New York, or Cardiff, or Lyon for example. But this is far too broad.
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GinyuTokusentai
May 26 2016, 03:13 PM
SSj4 Gotenks
May 26 2016, 02:14 PM
I ain't even going to respond to someone that hesitates to even die for their family. Your post makes you look like coward, and like I've said, I don't need a history lesson that i already know. And you're wrong, people were willing to fight to defend their countries.


First: Congrats, you had to resort to an ad hominem.

Second: A coward? Really? I'd hesitate about f*cking dying so I'm a coward!?
No, I'm realistic. I think rationally so I know that I wouldn't blindly throw my life out there for my family. I'd think it through and look for ways around the dilemma first.
You make it sound as if I posted: "f*ck my family, only my life matters."
I didn't say that. I said that I'd do it if there wasn't any way around it.
If you think that makes me coward then you're really thinking like a child.
Why are you posting and replying to me again? I already told I don't care for cowards, I have no interests in debating with anyone that says "Perhaps I'd die for family members if there wasn't another way around it"and try to make it sound like you're a realist. If you weren't a coward then we would have continue this debate and I would have showed you proof.

And with the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour, I already told you I know the history behind it like with President Roosevelt knowing beforehand of the attack. My point was millions of Americans enlisted for war without being forced and millions died to save our way of life. The same way of life that millions of migrants and refugees will do anything for to get in the country. And if you're worried about corruptions and corrupt politicians, then it just proves a piece of land doesn't make the country, people do and the citizens of the country that defines it and makes it great and worth defending. The same people back in the old days in Greece that choose to defy the Persians that started democracy.
Edited by Zoom, May 26 2016, 04:01 PM.
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SSj4 Gotenks
May 26 2016, 04:00 PM
GinyuTokusentai
May 26 2016, 03:13 PM
SSj4 Gotenks
May 26 2016, 02:14 PM
I ain't even going to respond to someone that hesitates to even die for their family. Your post makes you look like coward, and like I've said, I don't need a history lesson that i already know. And you're wrong, people were willing to fight to defend their countries.


First: Congrats, you had to resort to an ad hominem.

Second: A coward? Really? I'd hesitate about f*cking dying so I'm a coward!?
No, I'm realistic. I think rationally so I know that I wouldn't blindly throw my life out there for my family. I'd think it through and look for ways around the dilemma first.
You make it sound as if I posted: "f*ck my family, only my life matters."
I didn't say that. I said that I'd do it if there wasn't any way around it.
If you think that makes me coward then you're really thinking like a child.
Why are you posting and replying to me again? I already told I don't care for cowards, I have no interests in debating with anyone that says "Perhaps I'd die for family members if there wasn't another way around it"and try to make it sound like you're a realist. If you weren't a coward then we would have continue this debate and I would have showed you proof.

And with the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbour, I already told you I know the history behind it like with President Roosevelt knowing beforehand of the attack. My point was millions of Americans enlisted for war without being forced and millions died to save our way of life. The same way of life that millions of migrants and refugees will do anything for to get in the country. And if you're worried about corruptions and corrupt politicians, then it just proves a piece of land doesn't make the country, people do and the citizens of the country that defines it and makes it great and worth defending. The same people back in the old days in Greece that choose to defy the Persians that started democracy.
That post is exactly what a realist sounds like. You're full of sh*t if you claim you'd die for anything without hesitation.
You have no idea of the concept of death if you claim that. You're talking like a child.

Your piece of history has nothing to do with my point. Roosevelt saw the attack coming... So what!? That points just makes America more of the bad guy in the story if anything.
You talk about Americans defending their way of life, but are you completely ignoring the Japanese? Their country's entire economy was about to get destroyed by the U.S. They had the exact same motives as the Americans.
I'm not saying the Japanese were the good guys. I'm saying there's two sides to a coin.

As for why I'm replying at you? Well, why wouldn't I? You called me a coward for sh*tty reasons so I called you out on it, you're the one who said he was done debating. But apparently your words are bigger than your deeds, just like when it comes to dying for something.
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

There's a thin line between bravery and stupidity, I don't see why anyone should just instantly want to sacrifice themselves for their family without a second thought.

Not sure how that would make Ginyu a coward if he happens to not be close to his family...
Kind of ridiculous to claim cowardice without knowing the full deal is it not?



In any case not sure why someone should die for their country just because they live there or move elsewhere just because they disagree with the ideals the country as a whole holds. Not everyone needs to be a patriot, some countries are stupid and full of a*****.

I'm not dying for David Cameron, no chance.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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SSJ4Gotenks, don't you dare think that you can put yourself on a platform above anyone else here when you're still typing behind a keyboard safe from the horrors of the real-world while spouting about how goddamn patriotic you are. You're not, you want to know who is, those who are currently serving on tour, those who have died or have served in the past. You do not know true horror and have stood in the face of it smiling like those you try to embody.

You're just as likely as any of us to s*** our pants in the face of death and run with your tail between your legs. The only, THE ONLY time you would get to stand on this holier than thou stance you have is if you stand in the face of death and laugh at it multiple times. Get off your high horse, you're a joke. Atleast Ginyu is being honest with how he feels, you're projecting fantasy onto reality.
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Crazy Awesome Legend

I believe the correct term for that is a Chickenhawk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28politics%29


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Novacane for the pain

Locking this before it boils over any further.
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